CodeSite 4.0

[Luke Miller]

I just noticed that CodeSite 4.0 was released by Raize. I couldn't find
a list of the changes/new features. Has anyone upgraded from 3.0? How
much is involved? TIA.

--

[Matthew Jones]

I've upgraded, and all I had to do was start using it. My code hasn't
changed at all. The list of changes is amazing, and many wishes have been
answered. Truly a superb tool for anyone wanting to know what is going on
inside their apps without disturbing the flow of action. I used Codesite
to develop a custom word processor, and could not have completed it
without Codesite. Things like being able to collapse the indenting are
really great, and now in Codesite 4 you can auto-collapse from your code
so that you can make the log more compact, while still being complete. For
example, in my word processor I output the state of the document objects
several times during an operation (like deleting a block - before,
deleted, merged) and this is going to make things much faster.

For anyone who does UI code and sometimes wishes they knew what was
happening inside, Codesite is a must IMO. Codesite 4 takes it to a new
level.

/Matthew Jones/

[Bob D]

Is there any trial version, how can we check it?

Thanks

Post by Luke Miller
I just noticed that CodeSite 4.0 was released by Raize. I couldn't find
a list of the changes/new features. Has anyone upgraded from 3.0? How
much is involved? TIA.
--

[Tobias Gurock]

Hello Bob,

Post by Bob D
Is there any trial version, how can we check it?

You could also try our logging tool SmartInspect as an alternative. We
have a 45-day trial version and an additional 30-day money-back guarantee:

http://www.gurock.com/products/smartinspect/

Many of our customers were former CodeSite users and cross-upgraded to
SmartInspect (and used the 30% discount for users of competitive products).

Kind regards,
Tobias Gurock

[Bob D]

Looks very interesting !

Thanks

Post by Tobias Gurock
Hello Bob,

Post by Bob D
Is there any trial version, how can we check it?

You could also try our logging tool SmartInspect as an alternative. We
http://www.gurock.com/products/smartinspect/
Many of our customers were former CodeSite users and cross-upgraded to
SmartInspect (and used the 30% discount for users of competitive products).
Kind regards,
Tobias Gurock
--
Tobias Gurock, Co-Founder
Gurock Software GmbH
http://www.gurock.com/

[Paul Dolen]

A few months ago, there was a couple of posts between Raize and
Gurock. (CodeSite vs SmartInspect.) I've never used SmartInspect,
but, from the discussion, I felt reasonably confident that CodeSite
was the better product. Some people had complained about speed
performance of CodeSite, but, that has been improved in CodeSite 4.

Of course your mileage could vary, so check out both products. But it
looks like the main thing that SmartInspect has over CodeSite is Java
support. If that's important to you, then it may be just your thing.
Java isn't important to me and I'm sticking with CodeSite.

Post by Bob D
Looks very interesting !
Thanks

[Bob D]

Few questions:

a. Does CodeSite supports logging over TCP/IP ?
b. Does CodeSite provides a redistributable (limited) console so end-user
can view log messages ?

also I find very good that SmartInspect has a trial version and of course
more affordable price !

Thanks

Post by Paul Dolen
A few months ago, there was a couple of posts between Raize and
Gurock. (CodeSite vs SmartInspect.) I've never used SmartInspect,
but, from the discussion, I felt reasonably confident that CodeSite
was the better product. Some people had complained about speed
performance of CodeSite, but, that has been improved in CodeSite 4.
Of course your mileage could vary, so check out both products. But it
looks like the main thing that SmartInspect has over CodeSite is Java
support. If that's important to you, then it may be just your thing.
Java isn't important to me and I'm sticking with CodeSite.

Post by Bob D
Looks very interesting !
Thanks

[Stephen Quinn]

Bob

Post by Bob D
a. Does CodeSite supports logging over TCP/IP ?
b. Does CodeSite provides a redistributable (limited) console so end-user can
view log messages ?

Yes to both
- http://www.raize.com/DevTools/CodeSite/CodeSiteTools.asp

HTH
Steve

[Matthew Jones]

Indeed, the viewer is now redistributable in Codesite 4.

/Matthew Jones/

[Bob D]

I cant find any reference regarding TCP networking.

Post by Stephen Quinn
Bob

Post by Bob D
a. Does CodeSite supports logging over TCP/IP ?
b. Does CodeSite provides a redistributable (limited) console so end-user
can view log messages ?

Yes to both
- http://www.raize.com/DevTools/CodeSite/CodeSiteTools.asp
HTH
Steve

[Ron L.]

Post by Bob D
I cant find any reference regarding TCP networking.

I do not see it on the latest web site as well - but allow me to assure you
it has been there since the CodeSite 2 days. I would have never been able to
debug my multi-threaded, COM hosting service applications otherwise...

I have been using Codesite with TCP for many years now...

Ron.

[Ray Konopka]

Hi Bob,

Post by Bob D
I cant find any reference regarding TCP networking.

The overview section does describe how live logging and file logging
can be performed locally or *remotely*. Remote based logging can be
performed using TCP, UDP, or HTTP.

But you are right, it certainly wouldn't hurt to explicitly state the
way remote logging can be handled.

Ray

[Tobias Gurock]

Hello Paul,

Post by Paul Dolen
A few months ago, there was a couple of posts between Raize and
Gurock. (CodeSite vs SmartInspect.) I've never used SmartInspect,
but, from the discussion, I felt reasonably confident that CodeSite
was the better product. Some people had complained about speed
performance of CodeSite, but, that has been improved in CodeSite 4.

You should give SmartInspect a try then. You would be surprised about
the features that are available. Here are some of the reasons why some
of our customers switched to SmartInspect:

- No dependencies on a dispatcher program (even with multiple threads,
fully synchronized)
- Full log level support (which is not the same as CodeSite's
Categories, we got that too)
- Process Flow information like available threads and available
processes in the Console
- Database log methods to log database queries, database structures and
so on
- Regular updates with new features and bug fixes (just compare the
release history of both products)

There are many many more differences, but I don't want to start a
discussion about all the features that are available in CodeSite and
SmartInspect. I just couldn't let your statement go unanswered. :-)

Kind regards,
Tobias Gurock

[Paul Dolen]

Post by Tobias Gurock
I just couldn't let your statement go unanswered. :-)

Of course, I understand. I hope your product does well. I'm just
happy with CodeSite.

Post by Tobias Gurock
- Regular updates with new features and bug fixes (just compare the
release history of both products)

Well, you got Raize there. They are worse than Microsoft at product
delivery promises. And I mean that literally. They are worse.
Really.

Post by Tobias Gurock
- No dependencies on a dispatcher program (even with multiple threads,
fully synchronized)

But, I believe, that CodeSite has more flexibility here, using either
Windows messages or TCP. Seems like a design trade off to have a
separate dispatcher, and I'm okay with CodeSite's design here.

Post by Tobias Gurock
- Database log methods to log database queries, database structures and
so on

Now in CodeSite 4.

[Ron L.]

Post by Paul Dolen

Post by Tobias Gurock
- Regular updates with new features and bug fixes (just compare the
release history of both products)

Well, you got Raize there. They are worse than Microsoft at product
delivery promises. And I mean that literally. They are worse.
Really.

I do not really know what issues you might have had with Raize - but my take
on it is that the products work as advertised, are well designed and do not
need constant updates and bug fixes. They get it mostly right first time out
of the door - and when I had any issues - Ray was always quick to offer
help.

Personally, I like it when a product is well put together that I do not need
to be in a constant flux of updates and have to re-test my applications all
the time because of a new feature du jour of a tool that I use...

[Q Correll]

Ron,

Ditto!!!

[Liz]

Post by Paul Dolen
Well, you got Raize there. They are worse than Microsoft at product
delivery promises. And I mean that literally. They are worse.
Really.

Perhaps you should clarify that with a few examples

[Ray Konopka]

Hi Liz,

Post by Liz

Post by Paul Dolen
Well, you got Raize there. They are worse than Microsoft at product
delivery promises. And I mean that literally. They are worse.
Really.

Perhaps you should clarify that with a few examples

In all honesty, Paul is indeed correct that we've had to push back
delivery dates on the CodeSite product. Although I don't think were
quite as bad as Microsoft. One notable difference is that we did
not remove huge core features of the product just to get it out.
In fact, we've tend to err on the other side, by adding newer
capabilities for our customers too late in the cycle.

Still, our projections of delivery dates could certainly use some
improvement. Part of the problem is being tempted to give estimates
on delivery too early. In an attempt to circumvent this we've been
trying to give customers a clearer picture as to the progress of
things rather than try to project some deadline that is most likely
going to change.

However, I should also add that we really do not want to get into
the situation where we have to release many updates for the
CodeSite logging classes and tools. This is indeed different than
our approach with Raize Components, which we typically release
an update every two to three months. However, both products
are built with the same committment to quality and attention to
detail. The difference in approach has more to do with the nature
of the two products and their impact on our customers applications.

For example, if a particular component has some defect, this
undoubtedly affects the end-user as well as the developer. CodeSite
issues tend to be limited to the developer. Of course, this certainly
does not mean that CodeSite issues are not important. They most
definitely are. It just means that we need to prioritize things
accordingly.

Ray

[Paul Dolen]

Post by Liz
Perhaps you should clarify that with a few examples

CodeSite 3 was at least a year, I think going on two years later than
originally promised. As I wasn't doing .NET, that wasn't a problem
for me. But, if you were wanting to use CodeSite for .NET development
back in VS 2002 era, you had to wait, with many delivery promises
broken.

For CodeSite 4. Well, first it was going to be CodeSite 3.1, which
never materialized. Then it was going to be CodeSite 3.5, which never
materialized. Then CodeSite 4 missed at least six promised ship dates
of "next week" or "end of this month". At least six. Then he started
taking pre-orders with the site saying it would ship approximately on
the 9/15/06. Most people that take pre-orders don't charge the credit
card until it ships. He charged it on the date of taking the
preorder. But then, he stopped even giving updates on delivery, it
was like he disappeared off the face of the earth with his site still
saying it was going to be delivered "approximately 9/15" into the
first week of October.

YES, RAIZE IS WORSE THAN MS AT DELIVERY PROMISES. No exaggeration. No
bull. They are worse. Period.

But, that said, CodeSite is a great product. And, I can't see even
bothering to try the competing product. If it cured cancer and cost a
nickel I still wouldn't buy it as I have no needs that CodeSite
doesn't handle.

[Matthew Jones]

Post by Paul Dolen
he disappeared off the face of the earth

Ray does that when he is putting the final polish on his products. But he
always ships rock solid code, and the delays are often due to his lack of
compromise. His support is also excellent.

I was quite happy to pre-order the product (which wasn't charged until
shipment in my case) because I knew it would be a great tool. It has a lot
of what I've wished for, and I couldn't live without it.

I'm sure we are all aware of how deadlines can slip, but CS4 is out and
well worth a look.

/Matthew Jones/

[Robert Meek]

In defense of Ray, his code is by far some of the best I've ever seen
anywhere! Bugs are fixed promptly, and he provides some of the best support
around via his newsgroups. Remember he's a small shop so things don't
always work exactly on the timeline you might like, but when he does ship a
program or component set, it simply works! Comparing him to MS is too low
an insult for most 3rd party providers but especially when talking about
him! CodeSite has saved me countless hours over the last four years, and
the additions made for it like CodesiteEx, which adds additional abilities,
and my own JclDebugHandler which sends error/exception info to the viewer
make it even better!
And another point you shouldn't forget is that you could never ask
anyone at MS to help you with a problem in your work unless it is specific
to a known bug in their product line. Ray treats HIS customers like members
of a family and is always ready and willing to offer as much help and advice
as one might require!
The REAL problem is that everybody wants everything yesterday and
sometimes you simply have to accept the fact that something is worth the
wait! It's like dealing with a mom and pop hardware store in your local
town where they cannot afford to stock everything you might need so you have
to wait until an order is shipped, OR going to the big conglomerate out on
the highway where they're sure to have what you need but when you ask a
question you have to deal with a sixteen year old kid who never used a
hammer in his life!
Who would YOU rather deal with? Personally, I always support those who
support me!
--
from Robert Meek dba Tangentals Design

Post by Paul Dolen

Post by Liz
Perhaps you should clarify that with a few examples

CodeSite 3 was at least a year, I think going on two years later than
originally promised. As I wasn't doing .NET, that wasn't a problem
for me. But, if you were wanting to use CodeSite for .NET development
back in VS 2002 era, you had to wait, with many delivery promises
broken.
For CodeSite 4. Well, first it was going to be CodeSite 3.1, which
never materialized. Then it was going to be CodeSite 3.5, which never
materialized. Then CodeSite 4 missed at least six promised ship dates
of "next week" or "end of this month". At least six. Then he started
taking pre-orders with the site saying it would ship approximately on
the 9/15/06. Most people that take pre-orders don't charge the credit
card until it ships. He charged it on the date of taking the
preorder. But then, he stopped even giving updates on delivery, it
was like he disappeared off the face of the earth with his site still
saying it was going to be delivered "approximately 9/15" into the
first week of October.
YES, RAIZE IS WORSE THAN MS AT DELIVERY PROMISES. No exaggeration. No
bull. They are worse. Period.
But, that said, CodeSite is a great product. And, I can't see even
bothering to try the competing product. If it cured cancer and cost a
nickel I still wouldn't buy it as I have no needs that CodeSite
doesn't handle.

[Liz]

Post by Paul Dolen
YES, RAIZE IS WORSE THAN MS AT DELIVERY PROMISES. No exaggeration. No
bull. They are worse. Period.

OK, so they didnt deliver on the date they said, but could you work in
the mean time? Yes, did they have your money/children/wife/personal
possessions.

OK, you have a right to be disapointed, but I hardly think grumping in
the borland newsgroup is the right place to do so, surely they have
support lines, and if you really felt that hard done by, a lawyer would
be an answer?

[Ray Konopka]

Hi Liz,

While I certainly do not like rehashing the mistakes we've made in the
past, I do believe your post was a bit harsh. I don't believe that
Paul intended the thread to go in this direction. Especially, when
it appears that you missed the statement Paul made after the

Post by Paul Dolen
But, that said, CodeSite is a great product. And, I can't see even
bothering to try the competing product. If it cured cancer and cost a
nickel I still wouldn't buy it as I have no needs that CodeSite
doesn't handle.

We've been in this business for a long time, and we appreciate all the
feedback we get from our customers. Sure, we like to hear when we're
doing things right, but it's also important for us to know when we drop
the ball. The key is to take that feedback, act on it, and move
forward.

The bottom line is that we are well aware that things did not go
as planned for the latest CS release. We are also making changes
to fix that so that it does not happen again. But, the product is
out now (has been for a couple of weeks) and we are very excited
about it and believe it to be an excellent product.

Might I suggest that we move on in this thread as well.

Ray

[Luke Miller]

I would also like to mention it is nice to have a vendor acknowlege
his/her mistakes. How many times have you seen someone defend his
"attacker" (I realize that Paul was not attacking Ray I just couldn't
think of a better word) and politely correct his "defenders"?

I've used CodeSite since version 2 and have been very happy. My biggest
complaint is that I never got informed about the new version so that I
could send him my money. My guess is that it was a spam filter
somewhere.

Luke Miller
--

Post by Ray Konopka
Hi Liz,
While I certainly do not like rehashing the mistakes we've made in the
past, I do believe your post was a bit harsh. I don't believe that
Paul intended the thread to go in this direction. Especially, when
it appears that you missed the statement Paul made after the

Post by Paul Dolen
But, that said, CodeSite is a great product. And, I can't see even
bothering to try the competing product. If it cured cancer and
cost a nickel I still wouldn't buy it as I have no needs that
CodeSite doesn't handle.

We've been in this business for a long time, and we appreciate all the
feedback we get from our customers. Sure, we like to hear when we're
doing things right, but it's also important for us to know when we
drop the ball. The key is to take that feedback, act on it, and move
forward.
The bottom line is that we are well aware that things did not go
as planned for the latest CS release. We are also making changes
to fix that so that it does not happen again. But, the product is
out now (has been for a couple of weeks) and we are very excited
about it and believe it to be an excellent product.
Might I suggest that we move on in this thread as well.
Ray

[Paul Dolen]

I think we are beating a dead horse here, so I suggest we drop it. But
I thought I'd mention my comparison to MS was only in regards to
delivery promises. Please do not construe that to be a comparison to
MS in any other respect.

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Post by Paul Dolen
A few months ago, there was a couple of posts between Raize and
Gurock. (CodeSite vs SmartInspect.)

<snip>

Is there anyone to comment (compare) on TraceTool <http://tracetool.sourceforge.net/> ? TIA

[Paul Dolen]

Post by R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah
Is there anyone to comment (compare) on TraceTool <http://tracetool.sourceforge.net/> ? TIA

I've never tried it, so I can't really comment well. I had heard of
it before though. I just looked at that page, and found a couple of
things of possible interest. It supports Java, like SmartInspect but
not CodeSite. It supports VS C++ Win32, which I don't think either
CodeSite or SmartInspect do. And its free, so you can't beat the
price. Basically, it looks to me like it is worth checking out, if I
didn't already own CodeSite.

[R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah]

Post by Paul Dolen

Post by R. Rajesh Jeba Anbiah
Is there anyone to comment (compare) on TraceTool <http://tracetool.sourceforge.net/> ? TIA

I've never tried it, so I can't really comment well. I had heard of
it before though. I just looked at that page, and found a couple of
things of possible interest. It supports Java, like SmartInspect but
not CodeSite. It supports VS C++ Win32, which I don't think either
CodeSite or SmartInspect do. And its free, so you can't beat the
price. Basically, it looks to me like it is worth checking out, if I
didn't already own CodeSite.

Thanks for commenting on the TraceTool; I also think that it is a nice tool, but wanted to know the popularity among the Delphi programmers.

(Apologies for late reply; here weather gone bad and so the connection)